Kai Lightner’s “Death of Villains” Is a Rare Triumph of Nuance

The new Reel Rock film Death of Villains captures Kai Lightner’s triumphant return to climbing after a difficult hiatus—but the narrative is far more complex than your typical comeback story. This is in line with the general trajectory of the climbing films of our era. The climbing community seems to want more: more community building, more ethical themes, more character development. Reel Rock, with its goal of “celebrating the human side behind the sport’s greatest adventures and achievements” has been a consistent purveyor of such films, including Climbing Never Die about Ukrainian climbers, and Resistance Climbing about the Palestinian climbing community.

In this vein, Death of Villains highlights Lightner’s first ascent of the eponymous route (5.15a/9a+), while also exploring a relationship that emerges in the process with a “cancelled” member of the climbing community: Joe Kinder. But this complex relationship isn’t the only tension in the film. The narrative begins with Lightner’s struggles with size and weight, which contributed to his hiatus from climbing. Lightner hit his first major growth spurt in 2015 at 15 years old, growing six inches in a year and gaining commensurate weight. His climbing performance plummeted while he tried to adapt to his growing body.

Climbing has long been a sport which prioritizes thinness to a dangerous extent, with many climbers speaking out on the subject, including Caroline Treadway with her film Light and ex-pro climber Stephanie Forté. While the International Federation of Sport Climbing introduced measures to combat disordered eating in competitive climbing in 2024, those actions came nine years too late for Lightner, who began severely undereating in an attempt to maintain what climbing culture had convinced him was a “competitive” weight. In a chilling scene of Death of Villains, he explains that even “hefty” pro climbers weigh in under 160 pounds. “So anywhere near 200 pounds you’re like, that’s impossible,” he says.

When Lightner’s mother, Dr. Connie Lightner, realized her son was struggling with disordered eating in 2015, she was quick to act, getting him the medical attention and support he needed. He took four years off from climbing, waiting until he felt ready to face the sport again. Throughout the film, his mother is a consistent supportive presence, bringing a loving lightheartedness to the narrative. In Death of Villains, Lightner describes his mom as his “best friend … my homie … she is my support system and I trust her more than anyone else in the world.” The film spotlights their relationship, letting the camera linger on endearing scenes of banter that show the love, but just as importantly, the friendship between them. In one of the sweetest scenes of the movie, she crashes with him in his Denver bachelor pad, teasing him about his hilariously empty fridge. Then, in 2020, she joins him on his trip to Hurricane, Utah, home of the Hurricave, chock-full of challenging limestone sport climbing.

It’s in the Hurricave that Lightner unexpectedly encounters the film’s other subject, Joe Kinder. In 2018, Kinder was dropped by his sponsors, Black Diamond and La Sportiva, after using an anonymous social media account to post offensive content at the expense of other climbers, including a post bullying a prominent female climber about her weight. The film addresses the controversy directly. When asked about her impression of Kinder, Lightner’s mom says, “I had to take a deep breath, roll my eyes a couple times.” She recalls her preconception of him as an “asshole” for “fat-shaming in a community that’s completely riddled with eating disorders.” Lightner himself also recalls his disgust with Kinder’s actions at the time.

Although Kinder left the climbing spotlight seven years ago, he continued climbing, developing difficult routes throughout the American Southwest, including in the Hurricave. When Lightner first runs into Kinder in the Hurricave, Lightner notes that despite feeling trepidation, “if you’re in somebody’s home, it’s rude not to speak.” But Lightner and his mom are upfront with Kinder about their distaste for his past transgressions, and Kinder, in response, acknowledges the cruelty of his actions.

In our interview with Lightner, he stated, “I feel like there’s this big narrative that the movie’s intention is to be a redemption arc for Joe, and that’s really not the case. I feel like the purpose of this movie is just to show how events happen, to show how human beings are complicated.” While Death of Villains does resurface Kinder as a character in the climbing world, it doesn’t advocate for Kinder’s reintroduction into professional climbing. “The film in no way is trying to minimize this thing that Joe was canceled for,” says Nick Rosen, a Reel Rock co-founder and head of creative. “Our goal was not trying to resurrect Joe Kinder.” Nor is Kinder interested in being resurrected. Kinder told Climbing: “Being in the public all of a sudden again is not easy for me. To be honest, I never really felt comfortable being a public figure and I still don’t … I’d like to keep living the low-key life I’ve rebuilt and stay on the path of positivity.”

While Lightner emphasizes that the film is about his Death of Villains project, it is undeniable that Kinder does play a large role in the story. After all, it’s Kinder who shows Lightner the Death of Villains project after he sends Life of Villains, a 5.14d/9a first climbed by Kinder himself. The film characterizes these route names as a conscious nod to Kinder’s “villainous” past—a persona which Kinder continues to cultivate through his apparel company Life of Villains, and a past which he is clearly still grappling with in the film. Ultimately, Kinder’s outsized role in Lightner’s narrative feels inevitable—and therefore the rehashing of Kinder’s past becomes inevitable, too.

Much of what Lightner told Climbing in the interview below adds layers of nuance and deeper perspective to the story. Ultimately Lightner’s and Kinder’s stories are complex, and the film isn’t didactic—it doesn’t try to tell you what to think. Instead it’s an intimate portrait of a relationship between two men who allow themselves to be emotionally vulnerable. Lightner and Kinder open up about their hurts and mistakes in a manner unique to the world of climbing movies, wherein masculinity is more commonly characterized by giant biceps, power screams, and hard grades. Ultimately, it’s this complexity, lack of total resolution, and challenging of stereotypes that make Death of Villains well worth a watch. The film represents an emotionally mature depiction of maleness and humanity—in all its many flaws—and one I hope we will continue to see more of in the future.

This interview has been edited for concision and clarity.

Climbing: Thanks for taking the time to chat with me today.

Kai Lightner: Of course, thanks for having me.

Climbing: Where are you calling in from?

Lightner: I’m at my apartment in Denver. I literally just flew back from Vancouver last night at midnight, so it was a late one.

Climbing: I saw on Instagram that you banged up your foot a bit. How’s it doing?

Lightner: We’re making good progress. Maybe I’ll try to squeeze in some projects in April or May, but it just depends on the condition of my ankle. I don’t feel the need to rush.

Climbing: So I got to watch Death of Villains last night. I think there’s this huge tension in society between holding people to high standards of behavior, but also giving people second chances when they fall short of that behavior. Is something that you’ve sensed for a while? Or did these thoughts develop after going through that sort of personal relationship building with Joe?

Lightner: We’ve all dealt with people in our lives in different capacities who have done some things that we ourselves wouldn’t have done, but who we are still in community with. The threshold for what people consider irredeemable or not is going to change by person—aside from in the court of law. There are some general things that we can all agree are unredeemable, but when it comes to our everyday offenses, it’s case by case.

To develop the relationship I have with Joe was a really interesting experience. My mom and I don’t leave things unsaid. When we realized that we were going to be in community with him, we confronted him about it, we asked him questions, and we got to observe his behavior. Joe hadn’t been in the spotlight for a really long time. People had no idea what he was doing. When people don’t know, they often fill in the gaps. But it was really cool to watch him building these crags, bolting these routes, mentoring people of all shapes and sizes and genders. Obviously, his actions started this huge conversation about safety for women in the outdoors and in general. He had committed to doing work to build community and try to make the space a lot better for future generations. And to me, that’s the definition of restorative justice. You apologize for your actions to take accountability, and you do the work to rectify so that no one else has to experience that.

Climbing: How do you think about the idea of redemption and forgiveness?

Lightner:  I want to make it really clear that everyone’s process and thresholds for how people treat them are different. I recognize that just because Joe showed up for me—and I’ve seen him show up for other people in the community—that doesn’t automatically invalidate the experiences of people who he may have mistreated in the past. Those experiences are also valid. I think it’s one of those things where when we live in community with other people and we have to recognize there’s nuance to the relationships that we hold. And acknowledging the gray area of people who aren’t just good and bad, things aren’t just right and wrong—that life is complicated, human beings are complicated, and we have to hold space for that if we’re going to live in community with others.

Climbing: Does the nature of these relationships change when they’re in the public sphere? Because the internet is such a maelstrom, people aren’t necessarily getting all the facts and they’re responding to their emotions in a variety of ways. What have you heard from the wider climbing community?

Lightner: It’s been a bit overwhelming, honestly. I had to turn off my notifications. They’re usually turned off anyway, but I really had to log out because it’s not really in my nature to respond to drama or controversy, especially when it’s not in constructive ways. I value my mental health too much to be running that rat race.

There’s been a lot of public conversation around, “Should Joe be in this film?” and honestly, I understand why. For me, it comes down to the idea that everyone has a different threshold for what’s tolerable, what’s acceptable, and what’s redeemable, and all of those perspectives are valid in their own right. I’m aware that there’s been a lot of discourse not only about my film but about others in this process, and this bigger conversation of “are we giving a platform to misogynistic behaviors?” I think, ultimately, human beings are complicated. We all make mistakes. But if we approach things with openness and honesty, and the people involved are genuinely willing to reflect, own their mistakes, and strive to do better, then I believe we shouldn’t shy away from showing the full complexity of these stories. I think we can learn valuable lessons from flawed individuals. Showing that makes the film feel more grounded and authentic, giving it a level of realism and integrity that connects with people on a real level. Nobody is going to start out perfect, but the journey of learning, growing, and doing better is something that can begin at any point, and that process itself is just as important and valid.

Climbing: What were the challenges in navigating how to bring Joe into the narrative of this film?

Lightner: I’ve been trying my best to tell my story and bring Joe into the story in a responsible way, because not only is Joe important to the community in terms of the work that he does, but I simply would not have been able to do this route without him. He bolted the route I was climbing on, he un-red-tagged it for me to send it, he would do the drive two to three times a week from Vegas just to belay me, give me beta, give me confidence. So it felt irresponsible—and a knock on my integrity—for me to get all the fruits of his labor, and not give him the credit that he deserves. So while I felt that it was necessary to bring him into this narrative, I also felt like we had to have this conversation responsibly. The conversation is going to happen, so we might as well get ahead of it and have it in a way where people know that we’re not ignoring the elephant in the room and we’re not excusing the behavior either.

In the movie, we address these issues head-on. We aren’t sidestepping it or trying to create a redemption story. I feel like there’s this narrative that the movie’s intention is to be a redemption arc for Joe, and that’s really not the case. The purpose of this movie is to authentically show how events happen, to show how human beings are complicated, and to show how we work together to create bigger stories and bigger accomplishments. Joe and I just so happened to be in the same place for different reasons at the same time. I was fighting to get my confidence back, to find my footing in climbing again, to achieve big goals. And he was the person who just happened to be there. You don’t always get to choose the lighthouses that show up in your life. But that doesn’t make me any less grateful that he was there.

Climbing: Let’s talk about another big theme in the film—disordered eating in climbing. Do you have any advice for the people out there struggling with eating disorders and climbing?

Lightner: When I started climbing in 2006, it was widely acknowledged and accepted that climbing had a strength-to-weight ratio that was imperative to the sport, but a lot of us were more willing to adjust the weight than we were the strength. The battle you will never win is the one with your own body. If you are consistently fighting your body to achieve something, your body will always win in the end. Doing things the healthy way always works out better long term. You can have an abundance of strength to carry the weight that you have—it’s the same equation, right? You can address the numerator and denominator to get the same goal. Approaching the sport in a healthy, honest way will always yield better results in the end.

Climbing: Looking toward the future, we are psyched for your Jumbo Love project. What are your plans for that project going forward?

Lightner: We were really close to piecing it all together. It was really sad, because the season was very short. We showed  up at what’s traditionally the right time. But the climate of the area has changed significantly in the last few years, so we ended up showing up like a month early. By the time it got good, it was only good for a really short period of time. Then, it was a whole shit show, to be honest. I definitely want to be able to go back out and try it. Maybe I’ll be able to squeeze in a trip at the end of the season, in April or May—that’s when it’s good.

Climbing: On Death of Villains, your mantra was, “Fight.” Did you say that to yourself throughout the project? Has that been your mantra before?

Lightner: I actually didn’t know I was saying it! I didn’t see the full send video until many months later. When Nick [with Reel Rock] called me, he said, “Do you always chant to yourself when you climb?” He showed me the video and I was like, “I said that? That’s awesome.”

Climbing: It fits the theme so well, because you’re talking about how Joe has this a muerte fighting thing on the wall and that you were learning to channel that.

Lightner: I don’t know, I guess I’m great for cinema [laughs]. It was cool. I got chills watching it. I just remember I was in the zone and everyone always says, “I did it on the last try.” Of course you did. The last try is always the send. But in this case, it was literally the last day of the trip. It was the second try of the day. I had the worst warm-up leading into it and I had fallen so low on my first attempt, I was just like, “I have to commit. I have to get in the zone. I have to find the space.” I grew up a competitive climber where you perform in the moment or you go home, so I knew how to find the space. I just had to really hone in. It’s all so focused, nothing else mattered. I didn’t hear anything else.

Climbing: After you sent Death of Villains, it seemed like there was a lift in your approach because you went to Spain and did three 14ds in like a week, right? Did you feel liberated or changed in any way?

Lightner: It felt like any moment where you break a glass ceiling. A significant part of athletic accomplishment is more mental than physical. Physically, I knew I was prepared, but it came down to mentally believing that I could do it. Once I sent that route, I knew I could do anything at that level. So in Spain, all those routes that in the past I thought were just so difficult and above me suddenly felt right in my eyeline. It was so much easier to commit and try hard knowing that I had what it took to accomplish it.